Let's TALK ABOUT Superheroes/superheroines
K T Ong
Posts: 483
Considering that there's a long thread here on rendering superheroes, I thought I might start another one in which we just talk about them for the fun of it. Let's just discuss the following:
1. Which (or what sort of) superheroes/superheroines appeal the most to you, and why?
2. Which (or what sort of) superheroes/superheroines turn you off, and why?
3. What sort of things do you look for in a superhero/ine? Is appearance everything to you, or how 'badass' s/he is (as in how good s/he is against his/her foes), or the kind of person s/he is (morally impeccable like Superman, or bad-tempered like the Hulk, or arrogant like Namor etc), or the concept of the superhero/ine (whether s/he's a mutant, magic-based, uses all sorts of futuristic gadgets, is a god/dess etc), or a bit of all these?
4. If YOU could have FOUR superpowers, what would they be?
5. Have you ever dreamt of superheroes/superheroines in your sleep?
Please don't feel that you have to answer all the questions above (and feel free to bring in your own discussion topics as long as they're about those guys and gals in comic books running/swimming/flying around in spandex :) ). I have my own answers, but for now how about sharing yours first?
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1. What appeals to me is what kind of personality do they have. Are they inspirational? Do they go by a good moral code? Will they stick with their morals? Of course, I love their costumes too. Depending on how cool or bad it looks, that will draw me in or immedietly make me lose interest.
2. What really turns me off is an excessive amount of cleavage and bare legs on women! To me, that's an immediate turn off. Sorry, but I don't like Super-Heroines looking like hookers when their costumes are nothing more than eye candy. Others love it, but I hate it. I also hate high heels. Why on EARTH would any super-hero wear high heels, especially if they have superspeed?! Makes ZERO sense to me! Do you know how hard it is to run in those things?! She'd be getting sprained ankles all the time! Oh, and I HATE the color combination of green and red together. That's another turn off for me. Looks soooooooooo UGLY!
3. I kind of touched upon this already. I look for a little bit of everything. I like heroes who have a good moral ground and I usually hate arrogant show offs like DC's Guy Gardner or arrogant pricks like Monet St. Croix.
4. Heh, four powers huh? ONE: The ability to create almost anything with my imagination (made of hard light constructs) like a GL power ring. TWO: Force Fields. THREE: Flight. FOUR: Energy Blast.
5. Yep! Many times I've dreamed of being a Super-Hero. Several times I was having a normal run-of-the-mill dream when all of a sudden I open my shirt to reveal an S shield and I start flying. *LOL* Then when I wake up, I wonder, "Oooook, where did that come from?!"
1 ) I tend to prefer Supers that are more dynamic, and less angsty. Case in point? Early Nightcrawler, especially during the earlier days of Excalibur, is awesome. Grumpy whiny angsty Nightcrawler before they killed him off for no good reason? Sucks.
2 ) Super angsty angst is a bad thing, as is a "hero" who is little better than the villains he fights. A little angst is okay, but if the entire story is "My dog died, my girlfriend left me, and I can never turn off my powers", that's not a superhero, that's a Country Music song. And if your superhero is named "Bloodspray", "Deathbringer", or "Slaughterfist", that is NOT a hero. It's an Anti-hero at best.
3 ) I tend to look at the overall picture first. For example, Spider-man usually breaks my rule about "Angsty Angst", but makes up for it by having a more realistic overall personality than most characters. Captain America may be 100% cheese on the surface, but (especially when written by Gruenwald in the 80's) is far more fascinating a character than you would expect. And a hero does not exist in a vacuum. If "Superultramegaman", with the Kryptonion style powerset and more, fights mere muggers and the occasional bank robber, meh. If he fights things that would make Cthulhu wet himself, then it might be a good bit more interesting.
4 ) 4 just might be too many. Definitely flight... superhuman reflexes... regeneration... and maybe if I had to have a fourth, Super Strength? Also, are we assuming they include all the 'required secondary powers'? For example, let's take super speed. Okay, I can now run at 500 mph. Can my leg bones avoid shattering at the pace? Do I have the ability to maneuver and react normally at that speed? If it's closer to 5000 mph, am I resistant to the friction engendered? Do I cause sonic booms or can I suppress that? Would my passage leave massive destruction in my wake from athmospheric effects?
5 ) Every time I get close to lucid dreaming, I end up either being able to fly, being stronger than anything else in my dream, or both.
Mostly agree again. The moral code professed by a hero/ine is quite important to me, too, and I definitely dislike heroes/heroines with an 'atitude' as well.
I think four might be too few for some!
I think we'll assume that there are automatically secondary powers which prevent/nullify all the undesirable effects. ;-)
A comic strip I drew long, long ago. :cheese:
1. I guess I prefer characters who have actual superpowers (Superman, Thor) to costumed athletes (Batman, Hawkeye). I don't mind characters who power(s) is/are basically one major gadget (Iron Man, Green Lantern), though. I guess I lean toward the more fantastic side of things; any healthy person could, with training, be like Batman, but no mortal is ever going to do the stuff that Superman can do.
2. Turn-offs? I don't have a problem with skimpy clothes, but I think if you're going to have half-clad women, you should do the same with the men, too. Characters of either gender should be more than window dressing; there should be a reason for the character's being. I don't care for gratuitous violence. I expect things to get messy in a world where superpowered beings are battling in the streets, but there should be a rationale for it. I also don't like unrealistic proportions (unless they're intrinsic to the character, like the Hulk). I remember one comic company whose female characters ALL had breasts twice the size of my head, waists as thick as my wrists, and legs that looked like they were longer than I am tall. Hideous! I remember seeing Superman, a while back, being done with extremely exaggerated musculature. I didn't care for that either. I suppose stylistically, I like comic art like the stuff I've seen by people like Neal Adams and George Perez.
3. Appearance isn't everything, but comics are a visual medium, so it does have an impact. If you're looking at a rack filled with comics, looking for something new, some covers are just going to jump out at you more than others. I like the good guys to have a decent sense of morals. Kind of like Gene Roddenberry's reason for the Federation not adopting cloaking technology in the original series; his heroes didn't sneak around. In my own writings, the good guys don't cheat on their partners, for example. I think without some sort of morals, there's really no difference between the heroes and villains. That's not to say that you can't have an honorable villain, but there's got to be some reason why some folks, upon gaining superpowers, take up a life of crime, and others fight it.
4. I suppose some sort of shape-changing would be my first pick, if I could have the traits of whatever or whoever I copied, including their powers. For the other three, in no particular order; teleportation, cybernetic telepathy (it would be great to control my computer with just a thought), and the ablility to communicate with anyone, whether or not I actually knew their language.
5. Yes, I've dreamt of superheroes, but it was so long ago that I can't remember what it was about.
Crud, I totally forgot Shapeshifting! Changing my answer! Instead of Force Fields as one of my options, I'd take Shapeshifting. :D
Oh, and another thing that turns me off about costumes....
Gloves that go midway up the bicep and boots that go midway up the thigh look GREAT on women. But it really it turns me off when seen on Men. For women, looks great, but on men it makes them look womanly and I hate that.
1. Likes. Good characters. Well-developed backstories, semi-plausible origin myths
2. Less stereotypes... For instance no native american characters who can shapeshift. done to death.
3. actual super powers.
Dislikes:
1. Rob Liefield art with pouty libs, big breasts, indederminite age, and poorly drawn men.
2. Obvious wangst, parents were killed in a car accident, evil daddy, abusive father/uncle etc. If you must do wangst, do something different.
3. Shallow characters.
4. Teens or Kids. (sorry, I'm older, and I just don't like to read teen/kid books)
5. Mature plot. By this I do not mean smexy, simply a story that has some thought into it, and is written for adults as well as kids involving real-life drama
5. Actual relationships. What is it really like to find a date as a super/hero.
6. Get over the dark knight syndrome. Yes, we know the public likes bad boys, but seriously? Stop portraying every good guy character as a square, and every lonerr guy as the only cool character who has a clue.
7. If you have aliens or alien characters, write them with a different cultural background other than being exactly like us but smexy and green.
Thoughts
1. Give your super heroes weaknesses and flaws. Not just obscure ones.
2. Resist the Sueness.
3. If your character does something wrong, there should be consequences, las in, you break the law, you are going to be wanted by the cops.
4. If you must have eyecandy, do so with both genders.
Uh-oh, one of my male characters has the high boots. Short gloves, though. I don't think he looks feminine. His uniform is one I can't do with any of the products I've seen so far, so it'll have to wait until I learn how to make my own clothes.
Liefield was the artist I was thinking of. Some of the worst comic art I've ever seen.
I should note that a "Weakness" per se, can often be the biggest crutch for coming up with a superhero. Case in point, Spider-Man. He has no "vulnerabilities", rather, his power levels are low enough that while he SHOULD just simply plow through an entire gang of mooks without breaking a sweat, careful planning by an intelligent mastermind can (and does) incapacitate him. He is stronger, faster, and tougher than any human can be, yet still has trouble with people more skilled than he is, and tough enough to take what he can dish out, such as the Kingpin.
On the other hand, Superman's weaknesses drifted into place, and the most ridiculous of these is Kryptonite. The only reason it exists is the actor from the radio play had a cold one week, so they made up Kryptonite to explain why Superman didn't sound so heroic that week. Of course, it's now so inextricably tied into the mythos that you couldn't get rid of it if you wanted, but as the archetype for the Super superhero, it's something we come to expect from him. On the other hand, Silver Age Green Lantern's "vulnerability to yellow" is patently ridiculous.
Don't try to deliberately give a hero a specific 'weakness' - rather, do something to show us your hero is not unbeatable, that there is a reason why him or her acting like a hero is a matter of courage and moral fortitude, not just "The bad guys can't hurt me, so why not?"
A VERY good example of this is "Invincible", by Robert Kirkman & Cory Walker. He has the standard "Super Strength, Flight, Super Speed, enhanced senses, etcetera, but no "magic rock" weakness. However, as powerful as he is, which is significantly more powerful than most of his world's heroes, he is NOT utterly unstoppable - he ends up on the recieving end of curb-stomp battles as often as not. In this case, his "weakness" is not some external force, but simply that he IS weak compared to some of the baddies, and he pays for it in blood and sweat.
Uh-oh, one of my male characters has the high boots. Short gloves, though. I don't think he looks feminine. His uniform is one I can't do with any of the products I've seen so far, so it'll have to wait until I learn how to make my own clothes.
Perhaps you can texture it. :)
Uh-oh, one of my male characters has the high boots. Short gloves, though. I don't think he looks feminine. His uniform is one I can't do with any of the products I've seen so far, so it'll have to wait until I learn how to make my own clothes.
I don't mind the look, personally. =-) It can look good with the right costume.
Liefield was the artist I was thinking of. Some of the worst comic art I've ever seen.
Liefeld and his imitators ruined comics for me. :sad: . I was a major comic fan, before.. .But stopped collecting after this style began to dominate the comics scene. I just prefer more detail and less exaggeration .
Great thread, K T Ong.
Knight22179:
I thought I was the only one who hated the bikini babe heroine in high heels. No woman hero, or "super" hero should ever be hero-ing in high heels, let alone what breaks down as a bathing suit. Also, I hate the high gloves/boots on men as well.
I also hate "briefs" on male heros. Yes, I know they are the mass flavor, because those who were first (in the United States) to draw the comics did so based on whatever rationale they developed (copied from wrestling, or what have you). They were, or course, just drawing them to entertain a bunch of eight year olds who didn't know any better, or had the capacity to really appreciate art. Nowadays, though, not so much. It is a whole different ballgame, and I appreciate those who put more realism into the equation, even for the fantastical.
I'm a Batman fan through-n-through. He is the ultimate (American) Ninja, and an example of how life long study and practice can yield a formidable adversary. The money helps one-hundred fold.
The four powers that I would love to have would be:
1. Invisibility (that extends to inanimate objects on my person)
2. Super-speed
3. Super-strength
4. Super-mimic (anything I witness I can replicate with precision)
But, I really wouldn't be a hero, or superhero. I would be a private contractor for hire. Though, I would limit myself to the U.S. Gov. as long as they keep themselves in line.
Bin Laden issue; Taken care of Sept 12, 2001... Gang members in your city; Taken care of... The Mob muscling your business; Taken care of... Etc., etc., etc....
I dislike heroes/heroines with overly exaggerated proportions as well. They just don't look natural. They look grotesque. That's why I never quite liked the Hulk. What I prefer is the lean, athletic figure. (I can't stand gals with MUSCLES, though. Ugh. Give me gals shaped like ballet dancers instead.)
Exaggerations in the form of cartoony caricatures can be great, actually -- if the show is FUNNY rather than serious. (Dunno about you fellas, but I actually hate cartoons or fantasy stuff which try to be too serious. To me they're as stupid as a remake of Platoon or Saving Private Ryan using Smurfs or Teletubbies.)
Speaking of gals with MUSCLES, I also dislike gals with the personalities of guys. That's why I can't stand Xena. She's just too... butch. Gals should always have a certain touch of femininity about their person IMO -- which DOESN'T equate with weakness. Filmation's 1970's superheroine ISIS -- one of my all-time favorite heroines -- is extremely powerful, but has lots of feminine grace and charm as well. (But it's the sort of charm that makes you admire her from a distance, rather than the sort of charm that excites carnal thoughts.)
Have to say, though, that I generally like male heroes more, especially the half-naked ones like He-Man, DC's Warlord and the hook-handed Aquaman. Always have a thing for half-naked muscle boyz wearing just boots and Speedos. %-P I fully agree in this respect that if you want shapely, underdressed gals in your comics, you should have shapely, underdressed guys as well!
I'd love to be one of those half-naked muscle boyz myself. In this respect the powers I think I'd like to have would be:
1. Super-strength. (At the level where I can lift and throw a truck or bend a steel girder.)
2. High level of resistance to normal forms of physical damage, though not full immunity. A cannonball would not kill me, but would still bruise me.
3. Adaptability to various normally lethal environments, such as underwater or extreme cold. (So I can go around in the Antarctic wearing just boots and Speedos, or stay underwater as long as I like.)
4. The ability to heal others by laying hands on them. Don't want all my powers to be 'tough-guy' powers; I want at least a 'benign' power as well.
I think it still takes a certain amount of courage and fortitude to go out and bash the baddies when you're as powerful as Superman. After all, you really don't know if or when they might use that green glowing stuff on you. Especially if they're Lex Luthor's henchmen, I understand. ;-)
I've pretty well given up on the whole superhero shtick - too many logic flaws. First and foremost, I find it hard to believe that there are several hundred beings of above-normal capabilities who also can sew and have access to either fabric of unstable molecular composition or a mixed kevlar/spandex weave. And if they can't sew, do they go to the tailor with a sketch of the costume and a bag over their head?
I also don't care for really bad science. I quit reading Iron Man something like 40 years ago when he introduced his new armor (the first such, in red and gold) featuring the 'transistorized boot jets' for greater thrust and endurance. I about barfed when I read that. On the other hand, Hardware had his really nice turbojet backpack - good for almost 5 minutes of flight. Much better.
And I really appreciated the version of "The WEB" done by (I think) Impact - where one of the original team takes down the entire crop of newly-trained members in their power-amplification gear and THEN reveals his suit is just yellow-dyed long johns and he beat them because they haven't really learned to use their powers yet.
As for power - just one, I think. The ability to not be noticed. Similar to the Shadow's power to cloud men's minds.
More like 'imaginary science'. The world of superheroes/superheroines is a world of the imagination, and in such a world there's no reason to abide by the laws of Nature as science knows them. Most people who read superhero comics do so to be entertained and to give their imagination wings, not to learn about science. :)
I do agree, though, that sometimes the science in the world of superheroes can be inconsistent. Rules spelt out or implied in one issue are ignored or forgotten in another. Which certainly isn't a good thing.
Superheroes are not scientific in any way, shape, or form - 99.995% of the ones with 'real" powers utterly shatter all the laws of thermodynamics, and the rest are simple things like "I'm super-strong because I'm 8'10" and weigh 700 lbs of solid muscle. But I move real slow" or "I'm tougher than normal because I have keratinous growths all over my skin". Or both.
Super power 'explainations' are just excuses to hide the fact that it's myth brought forward, not science as possibilities.
It would take millions of years for enough solar energy to be absorbed over the surface area of human skin at 1 AU to provide enough power for even ONE super-feat performed by Superman. You REALLY want an explaination? It's magic. Or if you MUST have some pseudoscience, you could always say the solar energy itself doesn't power him, it acts as a catalyst to enable him to tap superstrings, which DO power him.
"Transistor powered armor", as claimed by Iron Man? Well, when Lee and Kirby created him, neither one knew jack about electronics or science, Transistors were new, and they figured that the average 10-11 year old kid wouldnt know anything about 'transistors' except that he had heard about them somewhere before.
On the other hand, Thor and Captain Marvel don't even pretend at all - they outright state they're powered by magic. C'est la vie. :D
NOPE, I'm the shape shifter in this hear galaxy... :P
1. Which (or what sort of) superheroes/superheroines appeal the most to you, and why?
Strong but interesting characters with powers that are interesting too. I've writting a couple of comic stories and created about 20 heroes in various settings so I happen to think many of mine are more original than the fare out there. I do tend towards heroes in the DC Universe. Marvel has gone too gritty for my tastes. I like more magical heroes too.
2. Which (or what sort of) superheroes/superheroines turn you off, and why?
Guy Gardner irritates the CRAP out of me for instance!
3. What sort of things do you look for in a superhero/ine? Is appearance everything to you, or how ‘badass’ s/he is (as in how good s/he is against his/her foes), or the kind of person s/he is (morally impeccable like Superman, or bad-tempered like the Hulk, or arrogant like Namor etc), or the concept of the superhero/ine (whether s/he’s a mutant, magic-based, uses all sorts of futuristic gadgets, is a god/dess etc), or a bit of all these?
I'm more in to magical or god like heroes. I HATE all the T&A in the comic books these days. It's just as prevalent here in 3D land too. Allot of vendors I'm sure wish that guys like me would go for all that but come on, you can't fight a battle with areola's peeking out of the barely there top and you BETTER make sure and have a fresh bikini wax before you go after Galactus or he might eat you! :P My, that seemed a little... oh never mind! ACK!
4. If YOU could have FOUR superpowers, what would they be?
Shape Changer, Invisibility, Invincibility and of course Magical Hex powers. YUM... i think I got a little excited there! :P
5. Have you ever dreamt of superheroes/superheroines in your sleep?
Yea, a 3 way with Wolverine and the Beast! Yea, now you know... I'm a total freakazoid! :P
I guess our tastes are a bit different, then. I love briefs -- and thongs even more. %-P
I once actually dreamt of Spider-Man. Serious. In my dream I was at this costume party setting and there he was prowling around. I was some distance behind him and the people around never seemed to notice him. I then sneaked up behind him and pinched him in the butt causing him to jump with shock while I quickly ran away. All this happened a second time. The third time I tried to sneak up on him and pinch his butt again he suddenly turned around and pointed a finger at me, as if saying, 'Gotcha!' Couldn't remember the rest of the dream.
It would seem unusual that so few of the characters from world myth and legend -- in particular gods and goddesses -- have been recruited into the pantheons of modern superheroes/heroines. I can only think of three that are important: Hercules, who has really been overused; Thor, the Norse god of thunder; and the Egyptian goddess Isis. Characters from the Bible and the Arabian Nights, like Sinbad and Solomon, were actually turned into superheroes of sorts in a cartoon series by Filmation titled Freedom Force in the 1970's or early 1980's, except it lasted a miserable five episodes and hardly anyone knows of them today anymore. There was also a Young Samson produced by Hanna-Barbera in the 1970's or earlier, but it seemed too weakly related to the Samson found in the Old Testament, and again few recall him today.
It makes you wonder why there hadn't been more attempts by the comics industry to tap into the resources provided by world mythology. A superhero based on some character from the Hindu/Buddhist pantheon oughta be cool. I'm in fact toying with the idea.
Arguably this is what 'Monkey' was http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_(TV_series)
(Looks like the auto-linking can't handle the brackets, you'll need to copy the full URL out to a browser)
I love Black Super Heroes most I think. I also like creating my own super heroes from time to time.
But from comics
Love Batman
Spiderman
Oldman Logan
The Original Xmen Comics and Xmen Comics right up to the 90's Emcron Crystal and Dark Phoenix Sagas
I like troubled super heroes or imperfect super heroes
Though I do love me some Superman too.
I have a varied taste. A friend from Deviant Art Nightmare Rhino just got his first Graphic Novel Publish and I an waiting to buy a Signed Copy from him. Its awesome. Carnal is the name. Some fantastic art and a really unique premise and world. Very cool.
Luke Cage the Power Man does have a certain appeal about him. ;-) Can't think of any more others, though...
Wisdom
Money (yeah..thats a super power)
Strength
Immortality
Nope
Rawn
While I find myself, as I get older and less and less attached to them and let much of the collection go there are some stories and compilations I just can't let go of.. not yet anyways. One compilation "Looking for Trouble" was from the DC Comics "Outsiders" comic. Written by: Judd Winick and Illustrated by: Tom Raney, Criscross and Ivan Reis.... Got some pretty good action throughout but there is a sub story going on with Metamorpho split self and he coming to terms with past stuff. The ending panels really wonderful and touching.
Originally presented in Outsiders #1-7 and Teen Titans / Outsiders Secret Files & Origins 2003
http://www.dccomics.com/graphic-novels/outsiders-looking-for-trouble
Luke Cage the Power Man does have a certain appeal about him. ;-) Can't think of any more others, though...
You have the Original Captain American Isiah Bradley, Even though I don't like the character the new Ultimate Spiderman Miles Morales, Black Panther, Falcon, In Dc you have John Henry Irons Steele. He is a Martian but I think his attitude is that of this really serious black dude and he is ofter voice by Phil Morris. You also have my favorite green lantern John Stewart. Then you have real super heroes like Phoenix Jones, there are a bunch.
http://worldofblackheroes.com/black-superheroes/
As for powers
Just give wolveriens powers and I will be happy.