Tree question
theschemer
Posts: 68
I know it is not in the tree list but can I assume that it can still be made when it comes to a specific Pine tree? Where I live in the southeastern USA, we have what is called Long Leaf Pine trees. Like in the pic below. Is it possible to make something close enough for 3D backgrounds?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/41460075@N08/3996071792/in/photostream/
Thanks,
theschemer
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Sadly the Tree Lab in Bryce, although useful isn't always useful enough.
In this case I strongly suspect you won't be able to create a tree with those proportions. I had a go tonight and I certainly couldn't.
However, a quick look round shows one of Xfrog's trees to look similar if not exactly the same and the good news is that it's one of the Free sample trees (the slightly less good news is that as a rule Xfrog trees are very render intensive).
http://xfrog.com/product/JA01.html
Xfrog plants and trees are always top quality, highly detailed and much more natural looking than Bryce trees. That comes at a price with all the leaves (usually several layers of two or three different types/shapes) utilising alpha channel transparency, therefore increasing the render times severely.
Hope this helps.
@theschemer - Dve is quite right about the Bryce Tree Lab. It is more versatile than many have discovered. There are limitations, though and I also doubt that you can achieve pine trees with high stems and a short crown above. We have them here, too. Not exactly the same but quite similar. Pano 1 and Pano 2. XFrog has indeed great trees but as Dave pointed out, use rectangular pictures for the leaves that get their form from the transparent channel.
An alternative would be Arbaro http://arbaro.sourceforge.net/. It is written in Java and should run on any operating system. It is free. Trees can be exported in Wavefront OBJ as well, that's the one Bryce can digest best.
@TheSavage64: Thanks for trying to make that tree and confirming it is probably not possible. Although playing with the tree editor was fun, I was getting nowhere trying to make that particular tree. The free tree you linked to looks like a nice tree but is not like the one I need. I may get it anyway as it may come in handy in the background or a different project. Here is some better info and pics on the tree I am trying to create:
http://www.carolinanature.com/trees/pipa.html
I appreciate you taking the time to verify my concerns. :)
@Horo: Thanks for the link to the other tree making app. I will play around with it and see what I can do with it. You have some nice trees over there. Are you in Sweden or Switzerland? I thought I had seen that somewhere on your website maybe? I bought a Jonsereds chain saw many years ago. Great saw. :)
Thanks,
theschemer
great looking tree - just have to look out my windows
Well I downloaded the Arbaro software that Horo linked to, surprised it works on my Mac but it does and it's looking like fun at the moment.
It's a bit complex and will take some getting used to all the different parameters you can set to alter every aspect of the tree you create.
So with your tree in mind and looking at some of the other images of the Longleaf Pine on the internet, I managed to get this rough shape.
I'm still struggling with the leaf parameters (needles require that bit of extra work) so I exported the tree with no leaves. It imported into Bryce easily and didn't trip the Instancing Lab up when I used literally a few mouse clicks to make the forest.
It's only a rough render, but if I can manage this in half an afternoon, I'm sure you'd be able to get much better results with some practice.
It's certainly worth having Arbaro in your toolbox.
@TheSavage64: Nice job so far on that. I too downloaded that software and looked at it long enough to know I need to spend more time with it. :) I found a few video's online so I got a quick look at what it can do. I made a quick tree to understand the app and where the files go and how to export etc and didn't even think it was working at first as it was so fast. More complex tree will be slower I guess but I was impressed so far. I sure have a lot of new software's to spend time with and stay out of trouble.
Thanks,
theschemer
@Dave - those trees came out quite nice. Yeah, I expected Arbaro works on the Mac since it is programmed in Java.
@theschemer - Switzerland, not Sweden; more precisely in the valley of the river Rhone.
Hi Guys;
I am an idiot - I downloaded the Arbaro program that Horo talked about and other people apparently now able to use, But for the life of me I cannot get the program to start. I downloaded and unzipped the files twice, but when I try to click on the GUI listed, all I get is error messages. I know the program is written in JAVA and I must admit it has been awhile since I messed with JAVA which is installed on my system.
Any ideas what I may be doing wrong trying to get this program to start or run. I am running WIN 7 Pro 64 bit.
Thanks guys - looks like a good program if I can ever get it to run.
Bruce
Hi Bruce... Sorry can't help specifically because I'm on a Mac here, but the ReadMe file that comes with the app says this:
"You need Java 1.4.x and Povray 3.5 be installed."
Now I presume if you're only using it to export .obj files that Povray isn't necessary, but just check your Java is 1.4
Kind of got some needles on the trees.... not exactly right but some tweaking could get them more accurate.
Those are getting pretty close, Savage. Are you doing the foliage in Arbaro as well? I downloaded it (thanks for the tip, Horo), but haven't installed or tried it out yet. The problem that I have with most tree models available is that they seem to be based upon open-grown individuals - the kind that you would find in a park or on someone's lawn. This may be understandable, since those are easier to get a good look at. Forest=grown trees tend to have a different form, of course, with few live branches on the lower boles and smaller crowns near the top. But they're harder to get a good look at - difficult to see the trees for the forest in a manner of speaking. :)
@ Savage
Thanks for the info my friend. Finally got the program to work (Sort of) after playing around with Java and POVRay programs. I must say the program has a few glitches and tends to want to save trees in odd places even after I saved the destination locations. Also ran into several errors when trying to export, but did manage to make a few trees if you can call them that.
All told tho, interesting program and well worth playing around with in the long run to learn the quirks of the program. Thanks again for the info. By the way, really love the trees you have done so far - all I have been able to export so far is 3 trees with minimal leaves on them - Sort of like a naked tree in winter with a few holdout leaves.
Have a great day!
Bruce
This is a nice alternative to Bryce and Xfrog trees and I'm going to give a try to this program. Thanks to Horo and to you Savage, your demonstrations are very convincing.
SixDs: Yes, you're right about trees grown in forests. This programme allows you to start the branches from any point up the trunk and to 'prune' the canopy to any shape you require. So it looks like it's ideal for creating forest trees.
Also if you notice the Special Trees that come with Bryce are in fact two different trees grouped together, you could even use a similar technique and make one main tree with high up branches and a thinner and shorter tree with short stubby branches and scarce foliage, then place one over the other in Bryce and group them together.
Yes, the foliage is also created in Arbaro. As with much of the programme, there are plenty of parameters to get the individual foliage the correct shape as well as the tweak the coverage, but it does much like Xfrog apply the leaves in a spiral pattern.
Bruce: Yes, I noticed that when saving and exporting the programme doesn't remember the path you use and I've already made the mistake of overwriting one of the original preset trees with one I'd radically altered, as such I no longer have a the Poplar tree, but I can of course, just unzip the download again and copy another unedited copy of it onto the trees folder in the application file.
C-ram: I'm sure someone with your skill at creating natural looking scenes that are well populated with vegetation will have the application singing and dancing in no time. I look forward to seeing what you get it to do.
check this out - the trees work in Bryce - Carrara - DS - I use the free to learn version
http://www.plantfactory-tech.com/download/
I was busy doing backups and had my pc tied up last night (both of them) and was going to post this today but I see you already got it running. But here it is in case someone else has an issue.
http://www.java.com/en/download/installed.jsp
You have the recommended Java installed (Version 7 Update 51). (My version check)
http://www.povray.org/
http://www.povray.org/download/
arbaro.jar (This is the executable)
theschemer
Excellent job Savage64. I may get some time to play today. I have been burning a 4 wicked candle at both ends here lately but soon I will get more time to work on this stuff. Had a major pc crash (bad drive) a week ago and thought I had it going and was reinstalling all the files when the new (used) drive also bit the dust. So I am still rebuilding my older pc which is the one with all my important business stuff on it. Then of course the vehicle decide to blow a head gasket and I have been back and forth from the pc to the repairs down at the workshop. Found a cracked head so got one on order...A bunch of other things breaking etc so I guess once I get caught up I should have a few years of smooth sailing. :)
theschemer
Hello all.
Let me make some remarks on the Tree Lab. Of course, Bryce Trees are not perfect. However, in any other program trees are not perfect, unless they are made by hand. As an example, here http://www.bryce5.com/details.php?image_id=4751. However, these trees have a lot of polygons.
If you work carefully, then Bryce can achieve good results. Especially for background or mid-ground. I created 22 coniferous trees in the Tree Lab for 4 hours.
Here are some results after hours of work in the Tree Lab. Pine with long needles. Trees are only 270 to 500 polygons.
Incidentally, Arbaro is good program. I once tried to work in it.
Agree with you Alex, I usually use some bryce trees for the background of my renders but I've got some of my picture that use lots of Bryce trees like in my last post : http://www.daz3d.com/forums/index.php?&ACT=50&fid=38&aid=119383_vdz1hl0FxPKkC2Yochz8&board_id=1
I've try plant factory PLE but haven't got good fellings with it, so.. trying to produce a single tree that look like the one that's shoot in a photo is very difficult with any software, even with Bryce.
However, you've done a great job here with your conifers!
Oh and be welcome Slepalex, this is your first post at Daz Forum! thanks for joining the Bryce community!
Yes, I saw that your work, c-ram. Very impressive. I did not have the patience and the power of the computer to do so. I always follow the Daz forum.
@slepalex - great to see you here! Your work has always been an inspiration to me. Welcome to these Bryce forums. Great work on the trees.
Nice job on the trees. Looks like I have my work cut out for me. Thanks for sharing.
theschemer
When working with Bryce, thinking "outside the box" is a skill we have to adopt early on and never let go of.
If I were attempting a tree like the examples shown above I would use Boolean Operations to accomplish it.
Step 1: Create a pine tree in the tree lab that resembles the top part of your desired tree. In the Attributes, enable this tree as a Positive. Save the material you used as the trunk in your Library.
Step 2. Create a Cube. Enable this Cube as a Negative. Place this cube at the base of your tree so that it can hide the roots. Group the tree with the cube and it should create a cut off such that the roots are no longer visible in the render.
Step 3: Now we need to create the look of the extended limbless trunk. One could use a column of metaballs, which can then be grouped and then be collapsed so that it becomes a true single mesh object . I'd export then re-import this model as an obj. Just line up the top of your metaball column with the new apparent base of your pine tree. Apply the same material to the extended trunk as you did the trunk of the pine tree, and the result should look quite decent.
Perhaps an even easier trunk could be made by using one of the tapered cylinders in the Additional Primitives. Either way, this tree can be done.
There could potentially be some slight inconsistency at the point where the original tree becomes joined with the faux trunk, but these are relatively minor considerations. I think one could make it less noticeable by cutting off the trunk of the original tree a little higher up well above where the roots are. By cutting away more of the original trunk you can hide the "seam" within the branches so that the extended trunk remains smooth looking all the remainder of the way down.
The new dual trees we have in Bryce 7 libraries show how the basic idea of gluing trees together can create new levels of naturalistic complexity. In theory, one could create almost any form of vegetation, though it may require some cleverness and multiple steps, still it can be done all within Bryce.
It helps to keep in mind that the creators of Bryce didnt necessarily have the opportunity to fully flesh out every tool. Often, Bryce's available tools get part of the way there but not the rest, at least not in a direct sort of way. However the magic of Bryce for me is all the incredible stuff it can do indirectly, things you will not find in any manual.
What I'm saying is dont be NICE with Bryce. Start ABUSING the tools to see what surprises they may offer. Abuse boolean modeling by making booleans of trees...abuse the DTE to generate source images you can then export and apply as textures in Bryce or yet other programs...abuse cloud mats to make falling water or abuse a giant volumetric cube to create a hazy environment instead of always relying on the Sky Lab provided haze. Find unconventional uses for the available tools, and dont let the lack of a straightforward process put you off of your goal. Bryce is a riddle.
Once years ago I got into a rather heated discussion with another long time Bryce user about Bryce's tool set. This person was kindly explaining to me how to "properly" use certain tools especially in the way of lighting. The idea was that the developers had a certain thing in mind when they introduced these tools so I would be wise to use the tools in the proper way. My argument was that if I only use the tools in the manner the developers intended, then the only results I will achieve will be those the developers intended for me to achieve, and since that is not the look I want, I must do things my own way.
Bryce provides enough options that if you dont want to, you dont have to use any of the "tools." You can create your own sunlight with radials or domes, your own atmospheres with volumetric cubes and spheres, and lots of other stuff without ever entering the Sky Lab. 99% of the time the skylab haze is just fine, but one day you need a different more accurate haze model than the one the skylab provides so you build up your own atmosphere with fuzzy and volumetrics, and the result might end up more realistic than what the skylab would have done.
Fun fun
Hi, Rashad!
I always read at a forum your speeches (I won't be afraid this word) in good English. Therefore my online translator has no problems. I practically always agree with your conclusions. However show me result of sawing off of a root of a tree by means of Boolean operations! There is a strong wish to look!
@Rashad - thinking out of the box is what we try all the time, though there are more ways outside than inside the box. I have asked myself often whether these are bugs, omissions in programming or deliberately hidden possibilities. The fun of Bryce is that it never ceases to amaze me with all it has up its sleeve.
One thing, however, I haven't accomplished yet: boolean away the root of a Bryce tree. Metaballs just refuse to work. Like slepalex, I'd like to see how you make it work.
Trunks, branches and twigs, the wood, can be made transparent on one tree. In the second tree, you remove the foliage and with Segments you can create a stem, which you can stretch. The roots can always be burried. The problem now is the connect the foliage of the first tree to the wood on the second.
Hi, Rashad!
I always read at a forum your speeches (I won't be afraid this word) in good English. Therefore my online translator has no problems. I practically always agree with your conclusions. However show me result of sawing off of a root of a tree by means of Boolean operations! There is a strong wish to look!
No problem. I have an example rendering now. But you are correct in that the tutorial above is missing something. In order for the tree to behave in a boolean manner, it must first be exported and then reimported as an OBJ. This I did not specify. But the goal was to do as much of it within Bryce as possible without exporting. And indeed the result we want is still possible.
In the example I have rendering now the roots are hidden by means of blend transparency, with an image to control the range of the transparency. I will explain in more detail below.
Image 1
This image is what the finished product looks like. Notice the extended trunk which is the 40% tapered cylinder from Additional Primitives. For the most part I used the steps written in the original tutorial but with one twist....
Image 2
Here is a series of three related images. We see the tree before the roots are removed, and we see the tree after they have been removed. Since the tree is resistant to boolean operations, I have instead employed blend transparency mapping for the trunk material.
The black and white image you see here is an alpha map that tells Bryce that the areas in white are opaque and the areas in black are transparent.
Image 3:
These are the Material Lab settings you will need to fit this map to your tree in exactly the right manner to hide the roots and nothing more. It is sort of peculiar looking but it does indeed work.
One last thing, remember that the tapered cylinder doesn't need any transparency mapping, so when you copy the trunk material to the cylinder don't forget to remove the opacity mapping.
I do apologize for skipping the exporting the original tree step in the first post. I should have remembered this blend-trans trick much sooner. Years ago I was tasked with solving the curved trunks for palms and this was how I did it but after several years my mind remembered the process as boolean, when indeed it was transparency that was used.
Edit:
Yep, Horo, Transparency it is if we want to work only in Bryce. I am so used to exporting and reimporting things that I forgot to mention that it wont cut the tree while it is still a bryce primitive.
Brilliant question. I'm convinced it is a little bit of both. Unfortunately, Bryce was never geared to produce results that look high end, which to me is somewhat sad. It was a tool designed to be fun to use moreso than to be professionally productive. Yet, it does have incredible power at times, more than one could explain away. IS the power the accident? Who knows. It was expected to be a beginner's app. I really dont know if they considered what would happen to people once they became Bryce veterans, once they starting trying to do things outside of the original programming assumptions.
If I were to go further with the extended pine tree model, I'd export the whole thing into UV Mapper, I'd then use tricks to reimport the group as a single mesh object where leaves, truck, and e4xtended truck are forever glued into one object. Naturally I would need to set up the material zones ahead of time so they dont overlap, but such a tree would then be a fully complete item. IT is always best to try to turn the model into a single mesh, because as we know the instance lab has a bug where grouped objects don't randomly rotate as they are supposed to, so all the resulting trees will be facing the same direction. But I've not got the patience at the moment to write up another UV Mapper tutorial.
Which brings me back to why I really want an update for Bryce soon. I want the instancing lab to be fixed, as well as other things that should be relatively simple to accomplish so long as there is ample time. If only the IL woudl rotate grouped objects, lots of current hurdles would be unnecessary. I can only hope.
Well, Rashad! QED! Boolean operations are not possible with Bryce Trees. Export-import - it is not our method. To get a good quality, you need millions of polygons, and this is not acceptable.
I immediately did not upload this picture. I wanted recognition from Rashad that the Boolean operations can not be performed. But I prepared it. This root pruning with a mask in the channel transparency. Right there is a bad result of Boolean operations. In the center and the left is the results of work in the Edit Texture and DTE. However, in the root I still remained some artifacts. I found a way to fix them. In Mat Lab refractive index must be set to 0.
more
I knew there was a way of doing that, and couldn't remember how it worked. Thanks for refreshing my memory Rashad