I want V4 Products not V5 or V6. Planned Obsolescence Has To Stop.
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No, turns out the computer system I was working on was messed up and being worked on by technicians that didn't bother to tell anyone they were working.
That's why I hate it when you mods delete posts. I go and chew the techs out and they're innocent.
This time they're guilty.
I found they LOST about 3 hours of my work that now has to be redone.
Someone got yelled at today.
Even in terms of presenting a healthy appearance, tanning, extreme dieting and high heels all come to mind as highly unhealthy practices that many in modern Westernized culture seem to associate with “beauty.”
The tanning is no more unhealthy than the whole anemic look that Westernized culture used to be obsessed with. Actually, it's probably healthier since the nobility got that way due to a combination of extremely sedentary lifestyle (other than the long walks from one end of the castle/mansion to another) and genetic disorders. Oh, and a bit of artists' creative license to boot (painting the subject's portrait to be paler than the person actually is)
The dieting is just as bad, as the anemic look, though.
So then, by that observation, the gratuitous amount Caucasian skins we have in the store shouldn’t be nearly as interesting and well-selling as the scarcely few tanned ones we have. Not only that, but if you look at society these days, anyone who has a typical California-style tan is scoffed at as a Jersey Shore tool.
That's partly because the California-style tan is usually the result of either a tanning salon (fake) or tanning lotion (even more fake and more scoffed at, and even more associated with Jersey Shore than a salon tan, in fact, since apparently one or more of the male characters from that show sported such a chemical "tan".) It probably doesn't help that the tanning culture is beginning to be associated with underage tanning (including irresponsible moms who let their daughters tan), and that idiot who whined that Obama was taking her tanning booths away. Jersey Shore may well have split the public view of tanning as well, since now many associate it with that show, which though popular (like Jerry Springer), is considered "trash TV", and its cast members shallow, sleazy, and poorly educated.
Still, it kind of contrary to what we're seeing selling like hotcakes in the store. Tan skin is something that some people here actually demand to see more of, but as any PA will tell you, anything that's not a skimpy white girl barely makes a month's rent.
I don't know about "no more unhealthy," but the evidence for links to malignant melanoma (skin cancer) is pretty compelling: http://www.cdc.gov/cancer/skin/basic_info/indoor_tanning.htm I'm not saying the "anemic look" was healthy. Certainly being bled or plastering lead compounds on the skin are not healthy activities. http://www.vintageconnection.net/ModesInMakeup.htm
My point is that there are a wide range of cultural practices that are considered to enhance "beauty" within the culture, but which are quite unhealthy. And further, that "beauty" when considered an indicator of health is therefore going to be pretty skewed, no matter which culture we're talking about, and isn't a "universal" value. A large number of the studies I've reviewed that claim to have discovered some universal constant were conducted only on Western culture subjects (often only on college students in North America or Western Europe). The only effect I was able to find strong support for across cultures is the neonate effect on female attractiveness, i.e. facial features that look childish are more attractive to men, and even that was moderated by location in the face (primarily eyes and nose).
As someone else has pointed out, the primary market at this and other 3D content stores is probably Westernized consumers, with a skew toward males, so if what we're talking about is what's going to sell at DAZ3D, sure, Western ideals are probably right on target. I just think it's a mistake to think that these ideals represent some kind of universal virtue.
As far as "getting the conversation back on the rails" goes, is there anything more to say, other than that content creators are finding it more difficult to make a living making V4 products in a saturated market?
Well, I went off and did it.
For those of us who are concerned about male content, the official discussion is found Here.
Yep, remember when V4 came out (I never upgraded although I have a lot of V4 and M4 stuff). Still use Aiko 3, Hiro 3, David 3 due to having the huge investment in content, and I like their look over V4/M4. I do believe Genesis is the first attempt by ANY retailer to address the upgrade issue. You can use Micheal 5 clothes on Skullcrusher Ogre and vice versa. That's a pretty big deal. With the Gen 2 females expression abilities I'm seriously looking at moving over to Gen 2 now though.
Very likely, and a description that fits me to a T :)
Both DAZ and Renderosity are still chock full of V4 stuff, as are a lot of the free CG sites. IMO she seems to be DAZ's magnum opus and I think that new content for V4 will continue to be produced for the foreseeable future. I've noticed it's a lot easier to find Victoria content than Stephanie content, for instance.
V4 content is still strongly supported by content creators in other 3D stores (such as Renderosity and RuntimeDNA and Renderotica). I want more Genesis 1 content. I love mixing and matching clothes between males/females/creatures/toons. I'm skipping the whole G2 thing and hoping G3 brings back the G1 androgen figure. Anyhoot it's not up to DAZ3D but the content creators to determine what figure is supported based on their feeling of the surest and most lucrative return for their time invested on making these products. And its mostly female, mostly V4, mostly for Poser. Sigh! :-S
My feeling is V4 won't go away until such a time DAZ3D develops a 3D figure that works equally well in DAZ Studio as well as Poser as is, without the need of the DSON installer. And I don't think that will happen until Poser recognises DAZ Studio files the same was DAZ Studio already recognises Poser files.That's going to be a tough one. Sigh! :-S
I really don't like things that divide the community further. The original I idea Poser had was that people could save and share and all kinds of things, poses etc and no one would have go around reinventing the wheel. But then it became all about money and selling content and what could be sold etc. Okay, how many mini skirts does it take to dress Lolita? Not like a vendor could use a perfectly good free mini-skirt to go with his top, BANNED FOR LIFE! I hope the Generation 6's have a nice long run because there is so much in the product line up. Well, I went with the free and cheap programs. I think Daz was smart to want to build up suite of software and make the entry into this more reasonable. Separating the genitals also seems smart. They've done a lot of smart things. I like it here.
I'm glad V4 is still strongly supported. I would go ahead and look more seriously into G2 if and when it plays properly out the box with Carrara.
The 80% sale on Gen4 content the past couple days has been awesome :D
It certainly appears from the outside that they aren't willing to "ride the long tail" - they're caught on the "new version treadmill."
We don't replace our appliances every two years. Most of us don't buy new (not used) cars every year. We don't replace all our furniture every eighteen months. We don't move house every three years, unless we're in the military or some other highly-mobile profession. But, for some reason, the rapid upgrade is the norm in the digital world. This thinking will change once the "Internet of Things" takes off (nobody's going to risk "bricking" their fridge with a bad update), but for now we're stuck with getting shiny bells and whistles on a regular basis whether we need them or not.
Well I can't speak for other ppl... but I can speak for myself.
I am not producing the gen 4 stuff I was once upon a time, simply for one reason - a lack of support. My sales had started to lag... and this wasn't decided over one or two products. I noticed a bit of a downward spiral. So I decided to seriously look at DAZ Studio and Genesis. What I found was: Half the time spent developing content, as it does much of the work on its own + a superior system with superior results + better sales = Its a no brainer, really.
The bottom line is, and Ive said it before.... if people want more content of a certain type, they need to support it. When they don't, vendors (at least, the ones that are doing this full time as a job) look at sales fatigue very seriously... and start to consider other things that are going to bring in that money. Gen 4... just isn't cutting it anymore. And this is why other brokerages and their vendors have started jumping on the bandwagon.
That said, I DO still support Gen 4 (as well as Poser wherever possible) I actually have a few packs in progress for V4. But my primary focus has shifted to Genesis.
As someone else said, innovation isn't going to stop.... and it certainly doesn't wait for ppl. You either have to climb on board and hold on, or get off at the next port. That's just how it is.
Some do. I have a friend that gets a new car every 2 years. I know people that replace furniture every few years. It's a business and they are trying to stay innovative. there is nothing that says you have to use one figure over another.
I personally think NOW is the best time ever in 3D as far as available figures AND compatibility of content. I regularly use V4, Genesis 1 and GF2 as well as occasionally using M4, M3 and even Miki1/2, G2 kelvin and TY2. And I can use nearly all my clothing content on Genesis 1 and GF2, life is good in my runtimes.
hmmm... nevermind ;)
Yeah...oops, I guess.
Everything gets obsolete over time, so I don't understand the OP's rant.
Victoria 1 came out in 1999, so she's 15 years old. Victoria 4 came out in 2006, and 4.2 in 2008. You have to remember, this is an 8-year old figure. If she were a dog she'd be in her mid-50's now. But in the technology world, she's probably in her late 80's. The technology just GOT BETTER, and it's supposed to do that! Embrace the change!
Prime, most obvious examples:
Elbows and knees! It's the small details that matter to me, and people don't have elbows and knees like V4, M4, and all their brothers and sisters! I am a leg man (heh!) and the awkward anatomy/geometry of the V4 (and M4 and everybody-else4 and older) knees jumps out at me as if the character had been deformed by some awful freak industrial accident! I can almost always tell the vintage of character used in gallery art and even on DeviantArt, unless those limb joints are straight, out of view, or there's been postwork.
The knees and elbows got better in V5 and by V6 this problem has mostly gone away, so this is why I buy nearly EVERY x6 character's pro bundle now; it's worth the money! But I will still pick up props and clothing for the older figures; they can be converted.
Music and movies are going through a similar renaissance. Maybe sometimes still recorded on tape or shot on film, but I think that's fading. I record some music from time to time and I haven't used tape in years. This vinyl resurgence is nothing more than natural resource-wasting nostalgia. Vinyl is more pollutive too, so I doubt it will experience a lasting comeback. Besides, there are well-written EMULATORS for tube, tape, and vinyl sounds, and they don't require the use of oil by the barrel or the release of toxins! And distribution is changing. We're even seeing some music titles forgo CD distribution in favor of MP3 downloads or streaming services. And movies too.
So what was my point? V6 and M6 (and family) for the win! Use what you want, but just realize that Victoria 4 is getting up there in her years! :-)
You do all realise that this thread was posted almost a year ago, and was necroed for some reason. Everything to be said on this subject has already been said several times.
Indeed.
To be completely honest, posting these frustrations about Daz here, or posting the same about Poser at the SM site will not make a darn bit of difference. Here you will have those who are furiously guarding the integrity of the new line of figures and the way things are going try to change your mind or sometimes try and make your frustrations seem small in light of change. Just try to voice your frustration to other sites and complain and the same types will jump right in and try the same.
Money makes the world go round, and if you have been a part of this for some time it is your money that has turned the tide and gave them the foundation to be able to move along at this rate. *shrugs*
First off please do not blame the vendors, they are only doing what is right for them. They did not create these new versions of the programs or the figures.
You see that if you continue to spend your money like crazy then you are being rewarded for doing so, if not, so be it and don't let the door hit you on the way out. This is the same conclusion that is being told to the non conformers, whether it is drizzled in honey or not, that is what you are going to be told plain and simple.
Yeah that is blunt, and it is the truth and I hate to be the bearer of bad news. But to see this very same argument keep coming up, and coming up even after years have passed must say something to corporate and the programmers as well. Heck even the Genesis figure itself is becoming a topic of the same amount of frustration.
Give the customers something, it isn't like they are not and have not been asking for something for some time.
Until then you have your choices laid out in front of you, Gen 4 content is still being heavily produced for at other sites, and there are still good freebies being made for them. Go there and support the vendors who are still creating for your favorite figures, I do and I will continue to do so as much as I possibly can. It is all that can be done now.
And there are still things being created for them here, not so much but every so often a gem does appear. ;)
That's the "constant upgrade treadmill" that I mentioned earlier - spend, spend, spend; buy the current "newest thing" and throw it away when the next "newest thing" comes along. It's unsustainable - nobody has that much money in their pockets.
That's the "constant upgrade treadmill" that I mentioned earlier - spend, spend, spend; buy the current "newest thing" and throw it away when the next "newest thing" comes along. It's unsustainable - nobody has that much money in their pockets.
Yes, it is just that way. I still play with Poser 7, it took me a bit to leave my version of Studio 3 advanced behind as well and I did that merely to use Genesis. You see where that led, straight to Gen 2 coming out and Genesis lacking.
I am grateful that there are vendors who are creating for Genesis still. But there have been threads complaining about that figures lack of new products as well.
How many more of these threads and complaints have to pop up before the big wigs realize that maybe, just maybe, it might be great to listen to their customers instead of rushing head long into another different direction completely.
Unfortunately it will not happen here, nor will it happen there.
;)
Heck I am willing to deal with Studio's not so great rendering engine to play with M6, just give the figures some standing before throwing them aside for something new right away.
Yes, it is just that way. I still play with Poser 7, it took me a bit to leave my version of Studio 3 advanced behind as well and I did that merely to use Genesis. You see where that led, straight to Gen 2 coming out and Genesis lacking.
I am grateful that there are vendors who are creating for Genesis still. But there have been threads complaining about that figures lack of new products as well.
How many more of these threads and complaints have to pop up before the big wigs realize that maybe, just maybe, it might be great to listen to their customers instead of rushing head long into another different direction completely.
Unfortunately it will not happen here, nor will it happen there.
;)
Heck I am willing to deal with Studio's not so great rendering engine to play with M6, just give the figures some standing before throwing them aside for something new right away.
The head honchos at SMS pretty much had an answer regarding whether or not they even wanted to know what their customers had to say about their products over at CP. The took over CP when they acquired eFronteir's assets and shut down the forums. You can go through the official "channels" if you have a specific problem but that's the sum total of it.
Since the merger with Gizmoz, the DAZ PTB have pretty much gone silent. The only reason anyone in the forums knew G2F was being released last year was someone made an oopsie and put one of the new V6 textures in the store about a week or so ahead of schedule. As soon as they realized the mistake, the product was pulled but the cat was out of the bag. Up until the actual press release about G2F/M, there had been no indication that DAZ intended to return to the Gender split. DAZ had led everyone to believe that Genesis (as in one figure morphs into just about anything) was the greatest thing to hit 3D ever.
How many more threads like these have to pop up before they listen? How many angels can dance on the head of pin? Making changes, upgrades, improvements, whatever you want to call it is an age old commercial tool. Goes back to the days of Ronco and even before Ron (the father of the infomercial). What's the first thing you hear when a company releases a new version of anything? You always get a list of what's new and improved. Isn't that the first thing anyone asks when they look at a new version of something and consider buying it? Isn't the first question always what's new followed by what's better?
I don't see that mindset changing any time soon.
People can complain in the forums as much as they want but it won't change the economics behind it.
People can complain in the forums as much as they want but it won't change the economics behind it.
That is fine but many of the customers who did spend a fortune here once have not stopped buying, they just moved on to another site to spend their money. I buy some things here, spent a little more due to the big M4/V4 sale but a vast majority of my spending is at the other sites. After spending all of that money on Genesis only to have it lose much of it's support in such a short amount of time I have given up on wanting to invest in the Gen 2 Female and only buy certain things for the Gen 2 male.
There is just not enough out for the new figures to make me think them worth much, but that is due to the big split in programs and can be blamed on the companies themselves.
To be honest there are just not enough vendors at this store who can make enough for the figures to keep me interested here, and I do not see that changing anytime soon. At least not soon enough before they are retired for a new even more shiny line and the support falls apart.
M4 and V4 are still going strong at multiple stores, so that is what I will continue to work with. Sometimes you go with what works and what is still going strong even if they seem old and useless to the "new" crowd. Transition between figures would have probably made a difference. Easier compatibility between the figures that actually worked well, would have had me sold at day one.
Versatility is the key here, and that is where both companies failed.
They continue to move forward, but in doing so they so quickly jump into new territory and leave everything behind without even setting a trail behind them for others to follow. You have to jump right into the new, forget you spent a small fortune; or for some a rather large fortune, on what they had before and grab what small handful they are willing to give you now.
For many M4 and V4 were safe, they were able to be used in the big programs that everyone had, and they have a community who follow them. What happened to that ideal?
Off topic a little but you know this is nice to be able to talk about this and not have a big flame war break out. :) We are all a part of this community, no matter what program we prefer and to be able to voice frustration without having to feel rejected or small is a wonderful thing. This is why I prefer commenting in these forums then anywhere else.
direwrath2000, I read your last few posts and while I can understand your frustration, it seems like you "want" to be stuck with the old tech, the familiar, like many others. Me personally, I go with what makes my work flow the most efficient with the best results. I remember the early days with poser5/6 and how i struggled to get clothing to fit and how much i wanted to use clothing and props from other figures on the figure I was working on. Then i discovered the magnet sets from kaposer and clothing snapped on perfectly, but I was limited on how my figures looked. When Morphing clothes came out, I thought I was in 3d nirvana, I could use custom V4/M4 figures and have all my clothes fit perfectly, life was good even though I had to always add morphs to clothing when I wanted to use them. Throw crossdresser in the mix and i felt it couldn't get any better.
Then came DS and genesis 1 and my 3D life would never be the same, instant figures from all kinds of morphs via GenX, clothing from Gen3, Gen 4 and genesis 2 all fitting close to perfect, my workflow sped up 200% and I can't imagine going backwards now. Sure I still use V4 and M4 occasionally, but I can add all those morphs to genesis and it saves me a few clicks starting with genesis instead. I have all my custom V4 morphs also loaded in GF2, so when you talk about versatility, I have it in spades thanks to new tech.
I am happy creators are still making things for V4/M4, it gives me more things for genesis and genesis2 and since i am supporting them, I am sure to let them know which figure I am using their work on so they know which figure they are supporting.
I am so glad , that we are out of this Poser 4 trap. Finally weight mapping. In Poser as in DS. I don't want to look back. Bye bye V4, don't miss you. Hello Genesis II. Can't wait for DAZ5 and maybe a Genesis III with hopefully even much better technologie. Everything, that brings us closer to photo real posing and animation is wellcome. For V4 nostalgics, the market places are still full of content and still well supported. So where is the problem ?
If that is how you think then why take the time to post?
FSMCdesigns -- of course I am content with Gen 4. :)
I have thousands invested in those little toys. Do I think the figure is getting old, yeah in a way I do. But why move forward when I have no idea what direction to go or even an idea how long things will last?
Genesis was going strong but what happened? And Gen 2 looks okay but how long before they are thrown aside?
You know I want to give M6 a chance, he looks decent enough despite his flaws, but there is just not enough in the store for him to make me interested. I felt the same for M4 when everything was always being made for V4. The lack of content is a big thing for me.
Unfortunately there are not enough vendors in this small store to create a vast library of items for them and we are left with having to hope that the converter can do the original clothes justice when they transfer them over. Except from my experience with Genesis it does not work so well at all.
How many more other stores are going to start selling Gen 2 stuff regularly, cause if this is the only one then the figure itself is not going to have a chance out there.
That is the problem with this whole Daz vs Poser mess in the first place. There is no growth if you aren't allowing it to happen. That is what I am pointing out. Before I spent a good chunk at all of the sites sites, it is no longer that way. My spending has diminished drastically here.
As for solely supporting Gen 4, I support what I work with and that does include Genesis, sometimes Gen 2 Male. But I do not declare how horrible the figures I do not use are, as far as I am concerned each figure as far back as V2/M2 and as new as Gen 2 have something going for them. And though I do not work with them I do not say how absolutely thrilled I am that the older ones are slowly fading away, nor will I say that I am thrilled of how things are going forward.
These are just questions that users keep asking, these are the concerns that they continue to have.
People who keep asking these questions are not people who do not want to support the companies, if they didn't want to do so in the first place they would not be having such concerns would they?
I mean the same questions are beginning to appear concerning the Genesis figure as well.
As for compatibility, does Gen 2 convert better to the Gen 4 and older items then Genesis does? I know it's off topic but you said you convert them with success and I really would love to know if it is worth getting the extras for that purpose. ;)
It is about revenues. The market is split now. That's why DAZ and Rendo are now having sales going on year round. In the Gen4 days when both DAZ Studio and Poser users were buying the same products, you'd see DAZ have maybe 3 big sales a year... usually one in the Spring and a vendors sale in November. Now, whenever I visit DAZ's store someone is having a major sale.
Some vendors have commented that their Genesis products are selling great. I hope that's true. I was afraid this split would hurt vendors the most. I suppose the Genesis 2 figures came out in different sexes because the genesis 1 being able to morph into anything, meant only one set of clothing was needed... instead of a male and female version...??
For buyers... well for me... the problem is I spent the last 4 or 5 years buying Gen4 stuff. Do I now want to start investing even more in new figures? Perhaps if Genesis worked in Poser out of the box like Gen4 and earlier DAZ people.... I might be enticed.
And sometimes although new tech is better it's not always more practical. When Poser went to version 9 they upgraded their python as well and a ton of older python scripts no longer work in Poser 9+.
I think a lot of these threads are more a cry of general frustration than attacking DAZ or Smith-Micro. The culture is now different than it had been for some many years when everyone made and used the same base figures.
my two cents
I spent way more when first starting out and i am picky with what I get now and it's usually on sale. I also develop addons for games and other commercial CGI work that helps pay for the 3d assets, plus i make quite a few of my own assets.
As for the documentation, I am sure it exists for a reason, but I rarely have need of it. When i first install ANY app, I open it and go thru it seeing what all everything does to get the hang of it. Unless I plan on using an addon in a commercial project, I never look at readmes.