Some thoughts on using 'prebuilt content.'
Joe Cotter
Posts: 3,259
There is a perception by many in the 3D community that using 'prebuilt content' is somehow cheating. This is of course rediculous, as no major graphics production studio has one person doing everything. People work in teams. Some people do like to play with aspects of the whole process, but that doesn't in any way invalidate people who like to focus on texturing, lighting, or just casting... As a society develops, it always goes to working together as a more efficient method over doing everything oneself.
Personally, I like to model, texture, animate, cast... pretty much everything. But if I had to make all of my content myself I would never be able to do everything I want. When I purchase something, I see it as effectively including that person in my 'team.' Thus, Stonemason, RawArt, Faveral, Sarsa, Jack Tomalin, etc... all become a part of my 'team' when producing a given piece of art. They contribute, but the final piece is mine.
I mention this because people confront us with misconceptions about this and it is good to keep these things in mind. To be creative, it helps I find to appreciate what we bring to the table and not let others undermine that with their lack of understanding.
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Comments
The idea that one person has to be good at everything is really ridiculous.
I enjoy making content......but I also really enjoy seeing people take my content and make it look good in ways that I can't (though I try LOL)
In most studios, you don't have one artist that makes every single art asset, then animates it, etc. You have character artists, environment artists, prop artists, animators, etcetera. Does that mean the Animator is using "prebuilt content" because he didn't model / texture the characters and sets himself?
Nope.
Which is why I think the people who complain about "prebuilt content" are just Grumpy McGrumpersons. :P
Gedd, I agree. Frankly, I can model and texture, but it would take me way too long to set up a completed scene if I had to build everything from scratch, and my attention span just isn't that great. ;)
Of course, I don't take anything straight from DAZ Studio either. I export scenes, props, and characters, and then tinker with things in Blender. Anyway, for me this is just play time. If and when I attempt to make some art for a wider audience than fellow CG enthusiasts, I would like to think that they would care more about what story I tell with my images than what software or content I used to create it.
I've been hearing that old saw for decades now. Funny, most of our clients and my employer like using pre-made assets. The client knows what they are buying and how much it costs. Delays are minimal and often times we are done well ahead of the deadline.
It's interesting you mention telling a story with your image. For me that is one hallmark of a good image. It draws us in with a story, preferably one that isn't too laid out or obvious but rather hooks the viewer's imagination into running with it.
Is it that time of year again? Looks at Calender. Yep right on time for this type thread to pop up again.
I for one say if anyone wants to spend the time to create every item needed to do one rendered image let them. They are far better than I because they can and it means nothing to me that they are. I really just do not care because I do not like Snobs. While they model, texture, and everything I'll set right here and enjoy all my Prebuilt Content I have bought, with the added benefit of knowing I support a Artist I do like as I buy the content they create. I'll also Render many more images than Mr./Ms. Doit Myself in the time it takes them to do their one Render.
Skip the snobbery. I'd rather have my paycheck.
Some people will look at you in disgust when you tell them you left your car for service at a service station, as they think, no, they are convinced, that if you do not change your cylinder gaskets, adjust the wheel balance or adjust the valve gap your self, you should not own a car.
Totte, I saw some filters at Filter Forge under the same name, related?
Also saw some under RawArt, which I'm assuming are related to RawArt ;)
Yupp, Totte thats's me on FilterForge too, and I've got 97 filters there, still aiming for a hundred when time permits.
Oh, STOP IT GEDD! We're CHEATING!!! We're CHEATERS! We CHEAT! We cheat every other artist out of their sanity every day... just go look at the posts about us on CGTalk :) You'll find those poor people have been cheated out of their common sense... maybe it's because we got away with it for cheap?
Yupp, Totte thats's me on FilterForge too, and I've got 97 filters there, still aiming for a hundred when time permits.
Well ty for sharing :)
I think of it in the same manner of a photographer...
Does the photographer build his (or her) camera? Build the set? Grow the model? Sew the costumes? Dress the model? Pose the model? Handle all of the lights? Develop the film? Post process the images?
Odds are the photographer does a few of those items, but no way they do all of them (unless they are either insane and / or uber talented).
A photographer is usually stuck with whatever model is presented to them. Or setting, clothes, etc. And they have to make do with those items.
And since no one else has mentioned it yet:* photography. These CG snobs appear to give it a free pass, yet I don't know any photographers that create their own content—they probably exist, but are known as "painters" or "sculptors" rather than "photographers". Nevertheless the creative photographing of pre-existing models and scenes is quite rightly considered an art form. In my 3D I work I primarily consider my self as a kind of photographer—even though I do create my own content from time to time—yet if I go out with a camera my work, if good enough, is taken seriously, but however good my 3D work is I am merely dressing up dolls.
Yes, there are renders out there which use pre-made content that are artless and utterly ghastly, but there are ghastly paintings, drawings, photographs and original 3D modelling works too; nevertheless these other artforms are not written-off because of that fact. Hopefully one day the same will be true of our work—although, frankly, I do not intent to hold my breath until then as I think it will be a long time a-coming.
* It took me so long to finish this post that I had not seen the one above.
Yep..thats me too.
Filterforge is alot of fun to play with.
I used to make tons of filters for the sets i was working on...but i dont do it so much anymore...i guess because i already made most things i needed LOL
Hey, no problem.
I always fall back to a cooking competition show that I watched a few years ago. I think it was a baking show, but I can't be sure. I just remember that one of the competitors was pretty annoyed as some (apparently unjustified) criticism that a judge had given them.
The competitor's reply (and I am paraphrasing through the translation of my poor memory):
Does this judge grow their own vegetables? Raise their own livestock? No, I doubt they do. There's not enough time in the day to do that. As a chef you want to do that, you'd love to do that. But you have to trust to the tools that you have available and make the best from them that you can.
Absolutely in agreement on what's been said so far - I'm envious of those with the talent to craft whole worlds from scratch, it's just not something I'm capable of. I'm more like a movie director - creating scenes through the massed work of many others, all leading to a (hopefully) interesting scene. Without D/S and Photoshop, I might never have found my artistic side at all.
I will just say, that if not for those that came before me and created the models, textures, etc. then I would not be able to do the art I am doing right now. I am pretty happy with the art I am making since it has been a dream come true for me to be doing anything in 3D. I am also happy to purchase content that I feel is good and will help me create my images.
Here is an analogy....
When I used to airbrush and I had to buy the airbrush and the compressor and the paint was I less of an artist for not making those items from scratch? These were the tools and media I used to make my art and so the argument that I was not creating something because I didn't design and build the airbrush and didn't mix my own paint is ridiculous. Along those lines, where would any of us be if the developers didn't create the software to begin with or if the computer itself had never been invented?
I look at my art no different than directing a photo shoot or a movie. I need a set, I need lights, wardrobe, props, actors, etc. I am not going to build everything myself and be a one-man show. That is completely insane and the time spent even trying to do such a thing means I will do less art and be less productive.
To which I thank all the creative geniuses that keep making better software and for those skilled artists here at DAZ and other outlets for creating the wonderful 3D models that we all get to work with in our creations.
Are you kidding? Didn't you post something called Mech Wars in Stonemason's contest?
You'll never convince me it only looked good because it was using Stonemason stuff.
That said ... I'm as happy as a clam at high water cuz ... it's RawArt day!
Steam Battles will be mine (how I ever missed seeing that steam balloon, I'll never know).
The art community where I live tries to discredit all computer art by saying all we do is push a button! Here, though, it is often said viciously.
Well, one could reply with 'show me' to that type of statement, but unfortunately people with that type of attitude won't typically change it even when confronted with proof of the error of their thought process usually.
What my original comments were about were to give anyone who might feel challenges dealing with this type of perspective some mental constructs that might help fend of thoughts that might eat away at their sense of artistic value. We can't change other people's thought process, but eventually time will do what we can't. That is what helps me when I face these types of challenges.
When I was very young, I used to like drawing. I was very good for my age at taking a picture and recreating it. At that point I couldn't yet translate perspective of the real world into my drawings and relied on having a predone image to do it from. Someone saw me drawing one day and said "that's not art, that's just copying... if you can't do it without an image you aren't really drawing." I quit drawing at that point and didn't pick up a pencil again. It's important that we not let others do this to us.
When I show renders to friends I just tell them I bought these 3D dolls and buildings and can move them around. Back when I was on facebook and I would post a render I would go thru all the credits of the artists and most of my friends didn't know what in the heck I was talking about. Now if someone says that is a cool gorilla or the girl is hot or the dress is sexy I know they are complements to the original artists so I would tell them who he or she was if I could remember.
It is this community that has inspired me to up my game with my artistic side.
There are so many talented artists here, that I want to learn that aspect of it better too.
Rawn
You should invite some of them to sit down at your computer, and unaided, produce something with just one button press. They may have a different opinion.
While learning the basics in Studio is pretty easy, it takes a lot of work to go beyond that. I can morph Genesis into a figure I'm happy with, slap some clothes on it, and pose it, but beyond that, it's hard for me to get a final image I'm happy enough with to show to anyone else. There's still a LOT for me to learn, and there ain't no 'make art' button to be found anywhere. This takes work, just like drawing with a pencil. But I will learn. Using the content that the PAs create makes me feel like I'm standing on the shoulders of giants; but I still have to climb up there myself... I like the view.
Gedd when you said: "Well, one could reply with ‘show me’ to that type of statement, but unfortunately people with that type of attitude won’t typically change it even when confronted with proof of the error of their thought process usually," I don't know if you were referring to my statement immediately above yours. I live in a small town. Most of the people in the art community are retired, or if not, they have time. I have always told them that I would love to show them what I do and how to do it. They know I would be happy to introduce them to this field for free. I am retired and just want to spread what I know to others. No one has ever come to see or even try out these programs. A Lot of people who work in the "traditional" mediums feel digital is a threat. if you don't draw it, you cannot consider yourself an artists they say.
riftwitch - I replied to Gedd at the same time as you did to me. I have done just that as well as invited them to see how it is done. These people just want to knock others and not learn themselves. They want to prove that unless you draw or pain on canvas, you are not an artists.
I have not seen your work, so I am just going by your statement about wanting to improve. This suggestion might be totally wrong for you, but setting the environment up is very important. Find a program you like to use for rendering be it DAZ Studio, Poser or any other 3D program and learn how it uses lighting. Then render in that program. I had used Vue for only scenics for many years. Now that I am adding people, I export the figures as OBJs and render there not only to use its content, but I am most familiar with the program, its atmospheres and different lighting models.
My perspective is that there really isn't anything unique or original in the art world that hasn't been done somwhere by someone.
One of the things I loved about Stonemason's contest was getting to associate the art with the artists. Reading this thread and seeing the posters' names that are now more familiar to me because of the contest has given me a new perspective and appreciation that will stay with me long after the contest is history.
Absolutely. Art... music... storytelling... I've heard it said that there are only a few stories in the world. Does that mean they're not worth telling again? Of course not. But every storyteller tells the tale a little differently.
That's why I like to do morphs as my favorite part of an outfit, actually! Putting together the mesh and the texture and the rig is a necessary process. But when I do the concepts at first and the morphs at the end, I can see pieces of the stories that the outfit can tell. My favorite renders are the ones that tell me a story or hint at one. I can't always do that with promos, but when I can I'm especially pleased.
It's all about perceptions. Using Rons brushes or filters in Photoshop is perfectly fine and is considered normal but using pre-made content in 3D is frowned apon by some? Who cares. All that matters is the end result. I won't get any special praise if I used my toes to grip my mouse while putting together a scene:) Same thing in comics.. OOO you digitally inked that instead of using an inking pen and paper. Whatever buddy, get with the times. Todays day and age is all about saving time and convenience. Short cuts to get results is what its all about. If I want to build a website I'll use Wix instead of learning dreamweaver or paying a web designer. It's about time these elitists and traditionalists get off their high horses and accept that this is how the world works now, giving more people the chance to enter their world without jumping through hoops. Next thing we will have people here complaining "ooo you used a pose preset and didnt manually make it yourself.. See the level of retardation? Just ignore those type of people. They just feel undercut that we can get similar results to them with less effort:) Also some of these elitist 3d guys buy texture packs for their models instead of making it.. but nobody says anything about that lol, but its the exact same thing..Like I said, its all about perceptions:) Nobody creates anything from scratch. There is always pre-built content used in some form or another.